And for me personally a big issue is forgiveness. How does that play out in each of your lives? I bring that up only because I truly believe that as we hold onto our hurts by others we only keep ourselves in bondage and under the oppressors control even further. I believe that there is peace and true freedom as we forgive and let go of the wrongs we have suffered. That does not in any way mean that we *condone* the behavior or that we do not think that restitution still needs to be made. Also, please don't confuse my views on forgiveness with any type of fundie message. I know that a lot of you know that that is my background...but this comes from somewhere much different. It actually comes from a very selfish place of wanting myself to be whole and sane and not riddled with bitterness.

Us feeling better has everything to do with ourselves and really very little to do with what others are doing around us. There will always be arrogant, violent, nasty, uncaring men around. Does that mean that I want to live my life expecting the worse from *all* men?

This is not about defending men at all. This is about finding peace within myself and how *I* think that happens.

***I think why a defense of men working the same jobs women do, doing the same duties, rubs such raw wounds is that (and I believe you said similar already, Sophia) men are not in any way hindered by having these jobs, doing these duties. In fact, they're usually doubly rewarded and praised for them. They get thanks for them when women do not, mainly because (I think) they're seen as somehow stooping to a "feminine" level, which is de facto lower on the rung; emasculating themselves to do women's work.***

And Heather, yeah. I can see your point here. I guess I just choose to let it go. I guess I feel like I am only responsible for myself and my responses. What men do and what accolades they get for doing similar work is none of my concern. *BUT* for those of you who have a much larger worldview on these issues, seeing the far reaching ramifications, then I can see how this would fry you to no end. Personally, I am just trying to get through each day and be a decent person. My view is very small right now. Maybe someday I can tackle it all, but for now I am full up on what I can take on. Know that I admire those of you who do take on the issues of women everywhere. Really, I don't know how you manage it becasue the sadness of some of it can be so heartbreaking.

Annette

If we don't see the connections, if we choose to only deal with individual people in separate, individual circumstances we prevent ourselves from seeing and making the connections as to how their seemingly innocuous behavior is actually patriarchal privilege and furthering oppression of women. In seeing the wider, broader picture, I am not taking on the problems of the world. I can't. I am but one woman. However, if I choose to SEE that wider, broader picture and then see how the smaller, everyday details fit into that piacture, I CAN work to change those smaller, everyday things. A ripple in a pond.

I know that I've said and done a lot of anti-woman things out of ignorance. I just didn't know how it was all part and parcel of this bigger thing that hurts women, that hurts ME. When I become aware of the outworkings of those things, I find myself making maybe small, maybe seemingly insignificant changes in my speech, my interactions with others, my insisting on certain things I wouldn't or didn't care about before, and change does occur.

Sophia

Annette

Annette

Annette, it's awfully hard to forgive when the patriarchial boot is shoved up your ass and is never pulled out. I'd gladly "let go" of the boot but the men in my world won't let me let go of it. They all make sure that boot stays in place, causing pain and pressure up my ass, 24/7.

What you're said here is so like things I've heard in my former fundie world. It's really discouraging. Really. It never seemed that way at the time but it does now.

That's what women have been taught to do in our society and elsewhere. To keep telling ourselves that we forgive, we forgive, we forgive... all the while the pressure up our butt from the boot hurts so much each day that we can't ever ever get our minds off of it. But we're taught that somehow, the reason we feel the pain and pressure of the boot is because we simply stay angry about the boot being there. And if we would just stop being angry about the boot being there, the pain would go away!

The pain is always there and the pressure is always there and then on top of it all, other people in our world don't even SEE the boot sticking out of our ass or notice the blood dripping down because the boot's been there for so long. I'm not about to forgive the men who have their patriarchial boot up my ass. I just don't see how doing that is going to make me feel any better or give me "true peace and freedom".

I was given that hogwash mentality, about my anger causing me to be in bondage which in turn caused me to have no peace and no freedom (translate that into saying that a woman's lack of peace and freedom is her own damn fault), from the fundies and I've found out it just ain't true!!

Nothing against you personally. I'm just sayin'.

~LearningOne

No, not all men are this way but I'm not interested in looking for needles in haystacks and the 3 men in Outer Mongolia that aren't this way. It still doesn't negate the fact that men as a class are consistently across the board this way. Which as a result advantages and benefits all men, regardless of whether they're this way or not.

Whenever this type of thread comes along, it always makes me think of clumping people together by race or religion. *All* Hispanic people are ________. *All* Jews are _________. *All* men are _______.

I find this a poor analogy. Here's why. It assumes that we are all on the same level playing field. Which in fact we are not. Oppression has to do with power differentials. Men are not an oppressed class and we are not in a position to oppress them. It's the opposite way around.

And for me personally a big issue is forgiveness. How does that play out in each of your lives? I bring that up only because I truly believe that as we hold onto our hurts by others we only keep ourselves in bondage and under the oppressors control even further. I believe that there is peace and true freedom as we forgive and let go of the wrongs we have suffered.

I suppose that would make you a very good Christian and possibly even a saint, but personally, I don't subscribe to such beliefs or values and am not interested in being martyr.

Isn't this another way of telling women to stop being victims? I've touched on this before and I'll say it again. I find this dismissal of women's true status in society to be counterproductive and restrictive rather than empowering. In order for women to argue that social change must be made, they must argue that power differentials really do exist and affect women negatively so that it may be rectified.

Being a victim in this sense does not mean we're placing ourselves at the mercy of the victimizer. It means one has been afforded less than another on the basis of one's sex. Being victimized is not the fault of the victim. Preventing victimization involves much more than simply claiming a woman can control how others see her and treat her in society.

I think Learning One did a beautiful job in explaining how this all affects us. Repressing, ignoring and denying our oppression, suffering and pain isn't going to make it all go away. In fact, the opposite will occur. It will continue and may even snowball as society continues to deny that such power differentials and unequal disparities exist. Which in effect, gaslights women.

If women weren't victimized by a patriarchal society, then feminism wouldn't exist. So I disagree with the idea that women as "victims" somehow renders them powerless. It is the very recognition that women are victims which raises their consciousnesses and inspires them to fight for equal treatment and full respect. Realizing that one is a victim of prejudice and subordination is a necessary step towards empowerment. To deny it altogether is handing that power right back into the hands of the victimizer.

--------------------

Forgiveness isn't about being a "good christian" or a "saint." There are many non-sectarian articles and work done on the benefits of forgiveness in one's life. It is about releasing yourself from the oppressor's control once and for all by not letting their hurtful actions or words hold you back or hurt you or hold any power over you. It is about each of us being free from oppression.

Simply put, I don't want to be mad all of the time. I want to live my life in peace and freedom and have some solitude. I have had my share of suffering and I don't want it anymore. Maybe I am selfish. However, its in that place of peace and forgiveness that I am able to offer what I can to humans in need. I may not be on the front lines, but I do nurture mom's, young women and girls and hopefully empower them. It may be a different way than you would do it Lucky, but its my way and I know that those who have shared life with me are glad they did. And I am too.

Annette

I hear you, Annette. I hear what you're saying and what you want is *not* selfish. You have a right to live your life in peace and freedom and have some solitude. Yep, for sure and absolutely. But how women get that is where we disagree (but I never used to disagree with you~ I have been "enlightened" to now realize that I must disagree with you).

By just telling ourselves, that we are no longer going to let patriarchal oppressions and hurtful actions or words hold us back and hurt us, doesn't magically make that so. I think what you're saying is that by forgiving the oppressors of their actions and words against us, we are then released from their hold on us and are then peaceful and free.

I have learned that the ONLY thing that is going to make me personally, and other women collectively, peaceful and free is when the patriarchal oppressions and hurtful actions and words **STOP**... totally stop! Then, peace and freedom come. At that point, it is up to you as to whether or not you want to forgive those oppressors who did that to you and that's your personal judgement call. For me, I choose not to forgive those who have taken so much from me.

To me, a place of false peacefulness and erroneous sense of freedom does not spurn me on to action. It makes me complacent and content with the way things are... but my peacefulness and freedom and complacency and contentment are false, each one. Absolutely false... because sooner or later the hatred for my opppressors fires up again and I am on this constant roller coaster of

"I should be content, after all..."

to

"I hate being treated this way!"

to

"I'm not being a godly person and I should do the 'right thing' and forgive those who persecute me."

to

"How can the men in my life and in my world do these things without even the slightly bit of remorse?"

... and so the cycle goes. To me, that is the furthest thing from freedom and peace that I can think of.

A state of anger makes me act. I need to be there in order to act, in order to one day, I pray, get to that place of peace and happiness. But I know that my own peace and happiness is not going to occur without the anger, which spurns action from me to try and escape the patriarchy I am under. But the patriarchy is everywhere, not just here in my home... so what's the answer to that? Getting as far away from men as I can, in work and in play and in leisure and in everything else that concerns me. How I'm going to do that, I don't have a clue. I have no answers. I am now stuck in my situation but I'm waiting for the right moment to act. I have so much shit going on right now in my life that I can't even stand upright, to be honest. But having to crawl on my belly makes me damn angry, let me tell you!!! And I am not going to forgive those who have their patriarchial size 11s on my back keeping me down. That will bring me NO peace or freedom whatsoever.

We agree that women have a right to peace and freedom. We just disagree as to how to accomplish that.

~LearningOne

Learning One, I hope you are safe. I hope you can eventually do what you need to do to get safe if you are not. I hope that soon you are released from whatever or whomever is causing such oppression in your life. And yeah to a boot being in your back.... I'm so sorry. My God....its been a long time since I have lived under that kind of pressure. Maybe the pain has eased and I have forgotten. God, I hope not.

Annette

I don't think you have to hate your son or suspect him of "bad" to both recognize his privilege and make him aware of it. I don't think being profoundly, deeply angry at any person, group or system which oppresses us means we hate them, or has to mean we hate them (in fact, I'd say that anger, when applied and experienced without violence, actively engages: and one has to care deeply to engage -- in many respects, forgiveness -- especially in how it is often meant or applied -- dismisses rather than engages). I think it's fallacious to think that examining these things, truly feeling these things, and wanting -- demanding -- accountability and change will destroy our relationships with men: rather, it's about the only way the ones we have could even have a chance to be authentic and balanced. I think when we shove this stuff under the rug, when we live as if it doesn't exist, when we diminish it or excuse it, when we don't bring it and keep it out in the open, insist on better, THAT is actually far more destructive to relationships of quality, because it puts dishonesty into them, because it puts us in a position where we feel obliged to keep a peace that *we* didn't upset and destroy in the first place.

I think very few of us are far removed from the actual hurts, unless we literally remove ourselves from them, which -- of course -- dosn't mean they don't exist anymore, just that we got lucky to get an opportunity to create distance between it and ourselves somehow.

I don't believe that forgiveness seems far off for someone like LearningOne...like any of us, really, because of her situation, per se. Rather, it's because for one TO truly forgive (for real), if that's what was even wanted, harm would need to stop being done, things would need to be righted as best they could -- or even acknowledged fully as wrongs! I don't know Learning One's specific situations, but I do know that what she's describing isn't in any way unique to her: she's describing the plight of all women. She, you, me, everybody. I think the specificity you might be seeing in her situation is that she's letting her eyes be very open to it, really experiencing it.

Any of us can experience that just by walking down the street alone in a given day. Most of us do.