I really do NOT think that to be a feminist, we need to leave our families, whoa. That would make for a scary feminism indeed! I just think that when, as women, we take steps in the direction of having our own lives, flexing our muscles a little bit, spreading our wings, especially if it's all new, in the past we were always just there for everybody else and didn't allow ourselves to want anything or need anything or feel anything, well, it's disruptive. It's disruptive because of what happens inside of us when we do it, and it's disruptive because of how it affects and changes our relationships with family and friends. We really, really, really do become different people. And the really hard thing is, hard to face, hard to deal with, sometimes people we care a lot about don't like the differences. They liked us when we were thinking less about ourselves, what we wanted and needed, and more about everybody else, especially *them*. :/ They liked us when we weren't angry all of the time, weren't sad and depressed and grieving, when we weren't so "negative" and were "happier" and smiling and ... well, not causing any problems for anybody. Not speaking up. Not rocking the boat. It's all of this latter that results in upheavals in families and relationships. The hard thing is is, once you realize how much of yourself you've given away, how you've betrayed yourself and haven't taken care of yourself, it's really, really, really hard, well, I'd say impossible, to go back to the place where you just didn't think about those things. You just can't go back. Even if you want to.

Which doesn't mean that the new places you are "going" to mean the end of your relationships, I don't think that is true, maybe more like the relationships have to change, families have to change, and that can be painful. I want to post something so good about this really organic process of just growth and how it affects us as women and the people we love, but I left the book in my desk at work. I might go into town later and if I do, I'll pick it up and will post that section here, it's so so good and insightful.

Well, thank you for YOUR patience, Annette. We all need to get and to give plenty of patience, plenty of mercy, too, I'm another one, Annette, who puts mercy way up there at the top of qualities I love and appreciate in a person.

{{}}

Heart

Believe it or not, Annette, this question of yours made the breath in my lungs hitch a bit. I read these two sentences... and read them again... and read them even again. I thought about them off and on all day yesterday, honestly.

My first reaction is NO... I am NOT in that fundie world anymore... technically. I am of no specific religious denomination although I used to wonder all the time whether I should be... even now I sometimes do that. I missed (sometimes still do) belonging to "something" but it seems that whenever I do belong, it just does not feel right and I back off pretty quickly. The patriarchy just stands out to me like it's blinking with a neon sign attached to it and I just can't take it! I try... then the patriarchy of the denomination rears its ugly head... then I try somewhere else and the patriarchy's even worse. Just seeing the families sitting in the pews sometimes makes me crazy, watching the men in their stuffed shirts sitting there while the wives are trying to quiet the children and all that jazz. I just can't do it! But there are many things about "belonging" that I miss. Those things don't outweigh the negatives I now feel though... but every once in awhile I used to try (on rare occasions still do but the incidences are getting fewer and farther apart) to MAKE myself conform... MAKE myself accept... MAKE myself just shut the hell up and "be normal". It never works... ever! So, I'm hoping that I'm finally past that feeling of need and will be forever content to just do my own thing as far as the spiritual aspects of my life are concerned.

I still believe in a Creator (Creatress... is that a word?) and I worship that Creator in the ways of my own choosing and is it ever a mixed bag of ways, let me tell ya. I pick up the bible sometimes... I pick up several books I have on Native American spirituality sometimes... I read up on astrology sometimes and how the cycles of the universe have their way with us and influence us... I light candles sometimes when my mind is heavy about something... I feel a oneness with Mother Earth a LOT when I'm out in nature... I pray the rosary alot cos I still feel that love and attachment towards Mary. The beads feel so good in my hands. But I don't look upon Mary in the same way as I did back when. She has a whole new meaning to me now. I look upon her more individually and not attached to any sort of religious belief or any sort of background. She represents a strong woman to me now, who endured many trials in her life without the help of any husband (many mystics have written about their visions that say Joseph died very early in their marriage so Mary lived much of her life as a single woman and mother... and those same mystics, along with the catholic church, teach that her son was conceived without intercourse with a man and that Mary never did have intercourse with any man whatsoever in her lifetime... which I find to be soooo cool!! Regardless of whether or not that's true, I choose to believe that it's true and I love it!) and I have a statue of her too, in my house, which I love to look at.

So, to answer your question about church attendance, the answer is no. I don't attend a physical church building now and I don't subscribe to any sort of specific religious denomination.... I do my own thing, as I feel called to do it and my "worship" does not have any sort of Creator man-figure in it too often, athough I do read about the teachings of Jesus and glean what wisdom I choose to glean from his life. My old man is an athiest so he doesn't care about anything like that, which has always been a big *phew* in my life. I am not a "fundie" any longer in my beliefs, nor in my heart or head.

But the reason your question gave me such pause, Annette, is because it forced me to ask myself whether, just because I'm not a fundie in my heart or head, am I still a fundie in body? I mean... I'm still living out that sort of life, from outward appearance. I flushed my wedding ring down the toilet, I haven't had sex with the old man in at least 4 years and don't ever intend to again, I'm trying to find a full-time job so that I can separate myself legally from him but am having no luck finding one of those... so here I am, doing all the physical things that a fundie wife does around the house as far as cooking and cleaning and all the crap. Do those things mean that I'm still a part of "the fundie world"? I don't know. I think I have one foot in and one foot out. My head and heart are OUT but lots of the rest of my body parts are in. I'm working on the rest of the body parts getting out too but it just ain't happenin' yet. I'm just not there yet.

From this question you asked me, Annette, it brought into perspective a whole new revelation to me about prostitutes! ) Bet you didn't expect that to happen, did you? But it did and I thank you for that.

I've always had a hard time understanding why a prostitute just doesn't STOP prostituting. I mean, I was well on my way to understanding it but just didn't get it totally... until yesterday, after I thought about it. I am one with those prostitutes... we just prostitute under different conditions. I'm imagining that the totally vast majority of women who sexually prostitute with men don't want to do it. It makes them sick to do it. Their heads and hearts aren't into the prostituting. But they're doing it for one reason... cos they have to. Their kids need a roof over their heads and food in their stomachs and those women want their kids to have christmas presents under the tree on the morning of December 25th. So, they do what they have to do no matter how much the hell they HATE IT until they find some way to escape it and do something else.

Well, that's the way I am. My head and heart are not into patriarchy and are not into this situation I'm in and I HATE the situation I'm in. But until I find a way out of it, my body is stuck here, doing something I don't want to do but at least my kids have a roof over their head and food in their stomachs and presents under the christmas tree. I just have to be here right now... I have to do this to survive. But I'm looking for a way out and when I find one, I'm out. But, for now, I'm in. Patriarchy can make my physical body be "in" but it can't make my mind and heart be "in"....and that's what I would imagine sexual prostitutes feel too. Their johns can take their bodies but they can't take their hearts and minds. And those sexual prostitutes and myself, a "non-sexual marriage prostitute" are one and the same. Just in different costumes, in different set-ups.

I hope this answers your questions, Annette. I don't know how clear I've spoken this morning but I've done the best I can to answer your questions, which I honestly thank you for asking. They made me soul search, probably without you even realizing they would do that.

One more.... "Is this your secret life?". In a way, it's secret because my old man doesn't know I post here. I don't have any friends in particular who know I post here, although I wouldn't have any reason to hide it if the subject came up. I don't have a lot of friends in cyberspace anyone except the dear ones I have here anyhow, and you all know I post here. My FEW close wimin friends IRL (mostly friends I've made through our mutual love of animals and animal rescue) know where I stand on issues cos we share them so they would by no means be surprised or shocked or whatever, about anything I've said here. They already know those things about me and how I believe because we share them.

~Still *LearningOne*

See, this is the thing. This, to Heart, is "speechless" and look at all the incredible wisdom here. Imagine what comes out when she's not "speechless".

Such profound stuff here, Heart. Coming from WAY DEEP DOWN, as any woman can hear. All the things that have cost you so much, you are now giving away for free... to all women. Free!

I've been thinking a lot more too about what Annette said about not wanting to hate all the time. I think that many other feminist-type sites do speak a lot of hate and there is a time for true hatred to reign supreme on certain days and times and in certain situations. Some of us do have a downright hatred that on certain days and times is so deep that we are on fire with it. Some wimin have that hatred for patriarchy on fire inside themselves 24/7. That's not a bad thing if that's where they need to be and where they want to be. I have no right to judge those women and where they are, just as I have learned I have no right to judge any woman about anything as to where she happens to be at that place in time, in her life.

Here, at this site though, I don't feel that "hatred" reigning supreme 24/7 and that's what makes me feel at home here.... solitude can be found here. No, I don't feel like this site is just one big feel-good place cos I don't believe that's Heart's intention for her site either. But there are "corners of the room" where one can go if she just doesn't feel up to fighting the battle on a certain day... and there are other corners of the room, with armour hanging to don and swords to pick-up to fight the battle for freedom of patriarchy for women. Then, there are corners of the room where women can just go and sit, watching everything happening and learning from it all... and that's where I spend the majority of my time here. I'm starting to gain the courage to pick-up the armour and don it and pick up the sword and bear it against the patriarchial enemy... but I'm scared most of the time, as I'm doing it. But I don't have to look too far to see a beautiful big amazon woman, all decked out in her armour that she hardly ever takes off, standing and speaking strongly and wisely and that helps my fears to melt totally away. We need that mix of WBW in here, just to gain strength and support from each other. If there are men in our midst... ack! It's all undone. That's so obvious because of what happens on other boards, to me.

I don't like to feel hatred in my gut 24/7 either and there is so much crap going on in my life when my whole body is in flames with it! But not all the time but too much of the time... and that's why I need to change things in my patriarchial world. I have had enough... I don't want to be around men anymore or as much as I can help it. But my situation is not your situation, ((((((Annette))))))), and I'm sorry if I've made you cry or made you feel like you somehow have to leave your husband in order to change your situation. I read Heart's post in response to yours and you would be wise to listen to her. That's the danger of the new and inexperienced speaking too much, like myself. I feel like I have spoken too much and now I need to be quiet. Whatever I said, take it for whatever small value it has, and now listen to the much wiser and more experienced and valuable words for those who have so much understanding inside their souls, to give. I am going to bow out of this thread now and just step back and read... and read... and read. I need to learn so so much more myself. At least I know where to go to do that.

~Still *LearningOne*

"So here we are, trying to figure things out together." ...Heart

Ohhh, I don't care when, but please post this. Thanks for your kind words Heart.

Annette

Learning One I loved reading your story of how you are out of the fundie world but wonder if you are in it in body still due to your living situation. I also have been out of that life for about 10 years, but live a similar life to you in that I am home with my kids, home school one and another one coming up to school age. Our big thing in leaving church was that it was so NOT real. We crave honesty and realness in our relationships. We have both pretty much given up on ever going back to a traditonally religious church and we both feel fine with that.

And in no way did anyone every say or make me think that we need to leave our husbands... I just know that so many of your (meaning women on this board) relationships have changed drastically. It seems to be a by-product of growing and changing the way we function. I love my husband and he loves me and I don't want to be without him. I enjoy our relationship. The companionship. We have fun together. So maybe we won't go through the drastic changes that others have. Who knows.

Actually a lot of what we have been talking about here, about taking care of ourselves, about finding what we really want in life and pursuing it, putting ourselves first, is all stuff I have been going over for the past several months in my Alanon meetings. So I think we can learn in so many arenas and the Margins is one resource for me. Alanon is another....which is also a very spiritual program and that feeds that need in me quite well and in a manner that I am very comfortable with. Friends are another resource. And I am determined to find my own path. The path that works for me.

Know that I appreciated your words so much Learning One and you didn't say one thing that was hurtful or out of line or unproductive. Thank you!

Annette